Thanks!
The reason I asked you to write some-version-of-this is, I have in fact noticed myself veering towards a certain kind of melodrama about the whole x-risk thing, and I've found various flavors of your "have you considered just... not doing that?" to be helpful to me. "Oh, I can just choose to not be melodramatic about things."
(on net I am still fairly relatively dramatic/narrative-shaped as rationalists go, but, I've deliberately tuned the knob in the other direction periodically and think various little bits of writing of yours has helped me)
I liked the framing you did at Solstice of it as a general prompt to treat it as a skill issue without being about the exact recipe.
I read this as being premised on "going crazy about the world ending" meaning that you end up acting obviously stupid and crazy, with the response basically being "find a way to not do that".
My model about going crazy at the end of the world isn't so much doing something that's obviously crazy in your own view, but that the world ending is so out-of-distribution for everything you've been doing so far that you have no idea of what even is a sane or rational response anymore. For instance, if your basic sense of meaning has been anchored to a sense of the world persisting after you and you making some kind of mark on the world, you won't know what to do with your life if there won't be anything to make a mark on.
So staying sane requires also knowing what to do, not just knowing what not to do. Is there anything you would say about that?
Base plan: Stay still, die quietly.
There, you now have a better plan than going crazy! If you think up an even better plan you can substitute that one. Meliorization!
The point is that "maintaining sanity" is a (much) higher bar than "Don't flail around like a drama queen". Maintaining sanity requires you to actually update on the situation you find yourself in, and continue to behave in ways that make sense given the reality as it looks after having updated on all the information available. Not matching obvious tropes of people losing their mind is a start, but it is no safe defense. Especially since not all repeated/noticeable failure modes are active and dramatic, and not all show up in fiction.
For example, if there's something to David Gross's comment that the wretched journalist was actually giving you an opening because they saw importance in what you had to say about the situation, blowing off a genuine opening to influence the discourse on AI safety while calling it "doing nothing" would not be sane. Preemptive contempt has a purpose in bounded rationality, but it's still a form of pushing away from the information the journalist has to offer. It can make sense within a grand plan that weights this journalist low, but that requires a grand plan.
How do you actually orient to the world, now that we are what we are? Are you still working to...
"How are you coping with the end of the world?" journalists sometimes ask me... The journalist is imagining a story that is about me, and about whether or not I am going insane...
Seems too cynical. I can imagine myself as a journalist asking you that question not because I'm hoping to write a throw-away cliche of an article, but because if I take seriously what you're saying about AGI risk, you're on the cutting edge of coping with that, and the rest of us will have to cope with that eventually, and we might have an easier time of it if we can learn from your path.
I would of course take the question very differently from a journalist who had otherwise dealt with that slight inconvenience of trying to get to grips with an idea, and started to seem worried; instead of having had the brilliant idea of writing a Relatable Character-Focused Story instead.
Perhaps I overestimate how much I can deduce from tone and context, but to me it seems like there's a visible departure from the norm for the person who becomes worried themselves and wonders "How will people handle it?" versus the kid visiting the zoo to look at the strange creatures who believe strange things.
[There's also a much more banal answer that I wouldn't be surprised if it is a major, deep underlying driver, with all the interesting psychology provided in OP being some sort of half-conscious rationalization for our actual deep-rooted tendencies:] Not going insane simply is the very natural default outcome for humans even in such felt dire situation:
While shallowly it might feel like it would, going insane actually appears to me to NOT AT ALL be the default human reaction to an anticipation of (even a quite high probability of) the world ending (even very soon). I haven't done any stats or research, but everything I've ever seen or heard of seems to suggest to me:
Makes sense. Surely there were many cases in which our ancestors' "family and/or friends and/or tribe were facing extinction," and going insane in those situations would've been really maladaptive! If anything, the people worried about AI x-risk have a more historically-normal amount of worry-about-death than most other people today.
They didn't need to deal with social media informing them that they need to be traumatized now, and form a conditional prediction of extreme and self-destructive behavior later.
A cynical theory of why someone might believe going insane is the default human reaction: weaponized incompetence, absolving them of responsibility for thinking clearly about the world, because they can't handle the truth, and they can't reasonably be expected to because no normal human can either.
This is why, in a much more real and also famous case, President Truman was validly angered and told "that son of a bitch", Oppenheimer, to fuck off, after Oppenheimer decided to be a drama queen at Truman. Oppenheimer was trying to have nuclear weapons be about Oppenheimer's remorse at having helped create nuclear weapons. This feels obviously icky to me; I would not be surprised if Truman felt very nearly the same.
I did sympathise with Truman in the way that scene is portrayed in Nolan's movie more than most seem to have (or even, that the movie intended to). But I am not sure that wasn't just Truman making the bombs about him instead - he made the call after all, it was his burden to bear. Which again sort of shifts it from it being about, you know, the approximately 200k civilians they killed and stuff.
Truman only made the call for the first bomb; the second was dropped by the military without his input, as if they were conducting a normal firebombing or something. Afterward, he cancelled the planned bombings of Kokura and Niigata, establishing presidential control of nuclear weapons.
There is also recent debate about whether Truman was even well informed about the fact that Hiroshima was a city rather than a "purely military target", eg see the book The Most Awful Responsibility, well reviewed by many including Richard Rhodes, as well as the excellent interview with the author by Dan Carlin.
Dan Carlin recently did a Hardcore History Addendum show about Truman called Atomic Accountability. It was an interview with Alex Wellerstein who brings into question how much Truman actually knew about the location of the first bomb being dropped. Truman (possibly) thought that rulling out Kyoto (which was number one on the list), meant he was ruling out cities as targets, and didn't know Hiroshima was a city. This seems wild, until you factor in how all the information is being fed to him, how long he'd known about the nuclear program and what the competing military interests were. Worth a listen if you're into the topic as it's a new perspective.
All of this is not to be confused with the Buddhist doctrine that every form of negative internal experience is your own fault for not being Buddhist enough.
Not really, but it's a long explanation and at this point I'm pretty sure some of the inference steps have to be confirmed by laborious trained processes. Nor is this process about reality (as many delusional Buddhists seem to insist), but more like choosing to run a different OS on ones hardware. The size of the task and the low probability of success makes it not worth the squeeze for many afaict. For the record, in case it is helpful to anyone at all, there are three types of dukkha, and painful sensations are explicitly the ones one can do nothing about (other than mundane skillful action). It is the dukkha of change (stuck priors) and the dukkha of fabrications (much more complicated) that Buddhist training eliminates.
But the thing I actually want to comment about is related to a point I've had a really hard time communicating to people about the deciding to be sane thing. It's a kind of scale-free mental move where people seem to have a really hard time with self-reference, thinking it's some sort of gotcha when it isn't....
Hey Cole! I also went through a period of feeling pretty worried about s-risks, and have recently come out the other side. If you'd like someone to talk to, or even any advice re: any materials you might find helpful for coming to accept/loosen the grip of fear and anxiety, my inbox is open (I'm a clinical psych PhD student and have lots of resources for existential/humanist therapy, compassion-focused therapy, CBT, DBT, etc.). I've probably read a lot of what you're worried about, so you don't need to worry about having any hazardous effect on me :)
Also, I'd love to learn more from you about your research! I like your posts.
Wow, this sure is a much clearer way to look at the self-pseudo-prediction/action-plan thingy than any I've seen laid out before.
The third way I stay sane is a fiat decision to stay sane.
My mental landscape contains that option; I take it.
This is the point I am even less expecting to be helpful, or to correspond to any actionable sort of plan for most readers.
Some years ago, I had a friend who told me she was still anorexic even though the reason she originally acquired anorexia no longer applies[1].
I responded "Have you considered not being anorexic?" She thought about it and replied something like "No, actually."
Two weeks later she thanked me for helping to cure her anorexia.
This is the type of advice that I expect to be profoundly unhelpful to >95% of people in that position (and indeed is rightfully lampooned approximately everywhere). Yet it was the exact thing this specific person needed to hear, and hopefully "you can just decide to stay sane" is the exact thing some small fraction of people reading your post needed to hear as well.
(censoring the exact reason)
In what sense are you using "sanity" here? You normally place the bar for sanity very high, like ~1% of the general population high. A big chunk of people I've met in the UK AI risk scene I would call . Does mean?
This is about "insane" in the sense of people ceasing to meet even their own low bars for sanity.
To be clear, I actually do this very rarely
Why do you only do it very rarely? Is there a non-obvious cost?
Curated. It helps to read accounts of how other people aren't wrecked by the current state of the world, especially someone who has a good model of their mental world and who has been dealing with this longer than most people. And there's lots of interesting things here, about being genre-savvy, the asides on predictions vs plans, and the Irori motto and image (which I love).
I liked your account of:
looking in the internal direction of your motor plans, and writing into your pending motor plan the image of you getting out of bed in a few moments, and then letting that image get sent to motor output and happen.
I do a similar sort of thing myself sometimes, and similarly do not think it is the same as predictive processing theory, which I don't believe in for several reasons.
I would call that "visualization", and I'd say that it's not hyperstition/woo because it's not believing in a prediction, it's forming a plan. (E...
Sanity has numerous indicators.
For example, when paranoid crazy people talk about the secret courts that control the spy machines, they don't provide links to wikipedia, but I do! This isn't exactly related, but if you actually have decent security mindset then describing real attacks and defenses SOUNDS crazy to normies, and for PR purposes I've found that it is useful to embrace some of that, but disclaim some of it, in a mixture.
I'm posting this on "Monday, December 8th" and I wrote that BEFORE looking it up to make sure I remembered it correctly and cr...
I teach a course at Smith College called the economics of future technology in which I go over reasons to be pessimistic about AI. Students don't ask me how I stay sane, but why I don't devote myself to just having fun. My best response is that for a guy my age with my level of wealth giving into hedonism means going to Thailand for sex and drugs, an outcome my students (who are mostly women) find "icky".
...Even if they had almost destroyed the world, the story would still not properly be about their guilt or their regret, it would be about almost destroying the world. This is why, in a much more real and also famous case, President Truman was validly angered and told "that son of a bitch", Oppenheimer, to fuck off, after Oppenheimer decided to be a drama queen at Truman. Oppenheimer was trying to have nuclear weapons be about Oppenheimer's remorse at having helped create nuclear weapons. This feels obviously icky to me; I would not be surpr
The technique is older than the "active inference" malarky, but the way I wrote about it is influenced by my annoyance with "active inference" malarky.
Oh, absolutely not. Our incredibly badly designed bodies do insane shit like repurposing superoxide as a metabolic signaling molecule. Our incredibly badly designed brains have some subprocesses that take a bit of predictive machinery lying around and repurpose it to send a control signal, which is even crazier than the superoxide thing, which is pretty crazy. Prediction and planning remain incredibly distinct as structures of cognitive work, and the people who try to deeply tie them together by writing wacky equations that sum them both together plus throwing in an entropy term, are nuts. It's like the town which showed a sign with its elevation, population, and year founded, plus the total of those numbers. But one reason why the malarky rings true to the knowlessones is that the incredibly badly designed human brain actually is grabbing some bits of predictive machinery and repurposing them for control signals, just like the human metabolism has decided to treat insanely reactive molecular byproducts as control signals. The other reason of course is the general class of malarky which consists of telling a susceptible person that two different things are the same.
Prediction and planning remain incredibly distinct as structures of cognitive work,
I disagree. (Partially.) For a unitary agent who is working with a small number of possible hypotheses (e.g., 3), and a small number of possible actions, I agree with your quoted sentence.
But let’s say you’re dealing with a space of possible actions that’s much too large to let you consider each exhaustively, e.g. what blog post to write (considered concretely, as a long string of characters).
It’d be nice to have some way to consider recombinable pieces, e.g. “my blog post could include idea X”, “my blog post could open with joke J”, “my blog post could be aimed at a reader similar to Alice”.
Now consider the situation as seen by the line of thinking that is determining: “should my blog post be aimed mostly at readers similar to Alice, or at readers similar to Bob?”. For this line of thinking to do a good estimate of ExpectedUtility(post is aimed at Alice), it needs predictions about whether the post will contain idea X. However, for the line of thinking that is determining whether to include idea X (or the unified agent, at those moments when it is actively considering this), it’’ll of course need go...
In this example, you're trying to make various planning decisions; those planning decisions call on predictions; and the predictions are about (other) planning decisions; and these form a loopy network. This is plausibly an intrinsic / essential problem for intelligences, because it involves the intelligence making predictions about its own actions--and those actions are currently under consideration--and those actions kinda depend on those same predictions. The difficulty of predicting "what will I do" grows in tandem with the intelligence, so any sort of problem that makes a call to the whole intelligence might unavoidably make it hard to separate predictions from decisions.
A further wrinkle / another example is that a question like "what should I think about (in particular, what to gather information about / update about)", during the design process, wants these predictions. For example, I run into problems like:
A further wrinkle / another example is that a question like "what should I think about (in particular, what to gather information about / update about)", during the design process, wants these predictions.
Yes; this (or something similar) is why I suspect that "'believing in' atoms" may involve the same cognitive structure as "'believing in' this bakery I am helping to create" or "'believing in' honesty" (and a different cognitive structure, at least for ideal minds, from predictions about outside events). The question of whether to "believe in" atoms can be a question of whether to invest in building out and maintaining/tuning an ontology that includes atoms.
Parts of that made me feel as if I understand my procrastination habit a bit better. That’s more mundane than sanity but still.
I want to say something about how this post lands for people like me -- not the coping strategies themselves, but the premise that makes them necessary.
I would label myself as a "member of the public who, perhaps rightly or wrongly, isn't frightened-enough yet". I do have a bachelor's degree in CS, but I'm otherwise a layperson. (So yes, I'm using my ignorance as a sort of badge to post about things that might seem elementary to others here, but I'm sincere in wanting answers, because I've made several efforts this year to be helpful in the "communication,...
Re
I'm not convinced though that ASI will bother to kill us or, if it does, very immediately.
I don't think we're certainly doomed (and have shallower models than Eliezer and some others here), but for me the strongest arguments for why things might go very badly:
This arguments are related to each other, and not independe...
I was doing do-nothing meditation maybe a month ago, managed to switch to a frame (for a few hours) where I felt planning as predicting my actions, and acting as perceiving my actions. IIRC, I exited when my brother-in-law asked me a programming question, 'cause maintaining that state took too much brainpower.
I think a lot of human action is simple "given good things happen, what will I do right now?", which obviously leads to many kinds of problems. (Most obviously:)
One of the ways you can get up in the morning, if you are me, is by looking in the internal direction of your motor plans, and writing into your pending motor plan the image of you getting out of bed in a few moments, and then letting that image get sent to motor output and happen. (To be clear, I actually do this very rarely; it is just a fun fact that this is a way I can defeat bed inertia.)
I do this, or something very much like this.
For me, it's like the motion of setting a TAP, but to fire imminently instead of at some future trigger, by doing cycles of multi-sensory visualization of the behavior in question.
Besides being a thing I can just decide, my decision to stay sane is also something that I implement by not writing an expectation of future insanity into my internal script / pseudo-predictive sort-of-world-model that instead connects to motor output.
Does implementing a trigger action plan by simulating observing the trigger and then taking the action, which needs to call up your visual, kinaesthetic and other senses, route through similar machinery to what you're describing here? Because it sounds vaguely similar, but: A) I wouldn't describe what I do th...
One way I could write a computer program that e.g. lands a rocket ship is to simulate many landings that could happen after possible control inputs, pick the simulated landing that has properties I like ( such as not exploding and staying far from actuator limits) and then run a low latency loop that locally makes reality track that simulation, counting on the simulation to reach a globally pleading end.
Is this what you mean by loading something into your pseudo prediction?
This is just straight-up planning and doesn't require doing weird gymnastics to deal with a biological brain's broken type system.
Even if they had almost destroyed the world, the story would still not properly be about their guilt or their regret, it would be about almost destroying the world
It is possible to not be the story's subject and still be the protagonist of one strand for it. After all, that's the only truth most people know for ~certain. It's also possible to not dramatize yourself as the Epicentre of the Immanent World-Tragedy (Woe is me! Woe is me!) and still feel like crap in a way that needs some form of processing/growth to learn to live with. Similarly, you can...
I would of course have a different response to someone who asked the incredibly different question, "Any learnable tricks for not feeling like crap while the world ends?"
(This could be seen as the theme of a couple of other brief talks at the Solstice. I don't have a 30-second answer that doesn't rely on context, and don't consider myself much of an expert on that question versus the part of the problem constraint that is maintaining epistemic health while you do whatever. That said, being less completely unwilling to spend small or even medium amounts of money made a difference to my life, and so did beginning a romantic relationship in the frame of mind that we might all be dead soon and therefore I ought to do more fun things and worry less about preserving the relationship, which led to a much stronger relationship relative to the wrong things I otherwise do by default.)
This vocalized some thoughts I had about our current culture. Stories can be training for how to act and bad melodramatic tropes are way too common. Every sad song about someone not getting over their ex or a dark hero movie where the protagonist is perpetually depressed about something that happened in the past conditions people the wrong way.
There is an annoying character in the recent Nuremberg film. He's based off a real person but I don't know how accurate that portrayal is.
He’s a psychiatrist manipulated by Goering. He's suppos
Thank you! Datapoint: I think at least some parts of this can be useful for me personally.
Somehat connected to the first part, one of the most "internal-memetic" moments from "Project: Lawful" for me is this short exchange between Keltham and Maillol:
"For that Matter, what is the Governance budget?"
"Don't panic. Nobody knows."
"Why exactly should I not panic?"
"Because it won't actually help."
"Very sensible."
If evil and not very smart bureaucrat understands it, I can too :)
Third part is the most interesting. It makes perfect sense, but I have no easy-to-acce...
It makes perfect sense, but I have no easy-to-access perception of this thing. Will try to do something with this skill issue.
As someone who believes myself to have had some related experiences, this is very easy to Goodhart on and very easy to screw up badly if you try to go straight for it without [a kind of prepwork that my safety systems say I shouldn't try to describe] first, and the part where you're tossing that sentence out without obvious hesitation feels like an immediate bad sign. See also this paragraph from that very section (to be clear, it's my interpretation that treats it as supporting here, and I don't directly claim Eliezer would agree with me):
...(Frankly I expect almost nobody to correctly identify those words of mine as internally visible mental phenomena after reading them; and I'm worried about what happens if somebody insists on interpreting it anyway. Seriously, if you don't see phenomena inside you that obviously looks like what I'm describing, it means, you aren't looking at the stuff I'm talking about. Do not insist on interpreting the words anyway. If you don't see an elephant, don't look under every corner of the room until you find something tha
This is why, in a much more real and also famous case, President Truman was validly angered and told "that son of a bitch", Oppenheimer, to fuck off, after Oppenheimer decided to be a drama queen at Truman.
For anyone else who didn't remember the details of what this was referencing:
Claude Opus 4.5's explanation of the reference
This refers to a meeting between J. Robert Oppenheimer and President Harry Truman in October 1945, about two months after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The meeting itself
Oppenheimer was invited to the Oval Offic
After reading this article by a human historian (Bill Black), I think there's a number of inaccuracies in Claude's account above, but the key point I wanted to verify is that Truman's reaction happened after just that one sentence by Oppenheimer (which in my mind seems like an appropriate expression of reflection/remorse, not being a drama queen, if he didn't do or say anything else "dramatic"), and that does seem to be true.
The author's conclusions, which seems right to me:
He, the president, dropped the bomb, not Oppenheimer. How dare this scientist — this government employee — assume the guilt for the greatest weapon ever used in human history? How dare he make himself the hero, albeit a tragic one?
I think Nolan got this right — this was what really annoyed Truman about Oppenheimer’s comment. By assuming guilt for the bomb, Oppenheimer was taking credit for it. And Truman resented this. He wanted the credit for dropping the bomb and saving American lives, whatever bloodguilt that may have entailed.
My understanding is that there's a larger pattern of behavior here by Oppenheimer, which Truman might not've known about but which influences my guess about Oppenheimer's tone that day and the surrounding context. Was Truman particularly famous for wanting sole credit on other occasions?
I kind of had a hard time not taking this as an ironic, veiled self-satire narrative by the author using a first-person perspective to deliver between-the-lines the critique of the character they've portrayed in the first-person. It hit me at some point that it -could- be, depending on how clever the author was or not. I don't try to be sharp or ironic as I find it distasteful most of the time, although when I ran into the concept of benevolent irony it gave me moral food for thought, irony has largely just looked like another clever way to wound people, and especially by projecting superior ability against the inferior. In this case it makes for effective satire, however, just because the cleverness (if I'm not misperceiving the author's intent) is quite brilliant.
That being said, if I were to try and interpret this writing as ironically satirizing the character's perspective by the author, the identifying tokens would be: to find strength in disconnecting one's self from enculturation via tropes that allow one to own one's mistakes so as to make half-hearted fixes after-the-fact which did not require hindsight to avoid causing, maintaining a covert ego in relation to them, and es...
Just remember that we are just evolved monkeys and the world is very complex. We may very well not have the capacity to see the reason why the world ending because of AI is actually implausible. I have been wrong too many times to get crazy or too upset for a thing I positively know we cannot foresee --even if the possibility space we are able to see is overwhelmingly bad.
Thanks for sharing this.
I don't expect that my methods of sanity will be reproducible by nearly anyone.
I think you're mistaken here. I've long used all three of your methods, broadly speaking, and I know several others for whom that is true.
Somewhat worrying the extent that reading Planecrash really does help understand this.
Does LW have spoilter tags?
edit moderate planecrash spoiler that comes perhaps 70 hours of listening in.
Rough approximation: After a while Keltham, wonders if he's in a story and begins discussing "the tropes" - he thinks are aspects of his reality which seem to be more story-like and whether they should play into or out of those aspects. Yudkowsky seems to be referencing the same concept here. Do we wish to play towards or away from the tropes we might expect to see?
I would respond to that question with: "How are you coping with the certainty that you, and everyone you ever knew or cared about or who cares about you, will be dead in a hundred years or so"? (And before many peoples estimate of AI doom). The simple answer is that we did not evolve to be able to truly feel that kind of thing and for good reason.
You really get asked that? Wow.
I also have always found the "the world might end tonight/tomorrow/next week" stories with people running around madly doing all the things they never would have otherwise a bit stretched. But then mob mentalities are not rational so I don't really try to make too much sense of them
I suppose that would be my first approach to coping with the world ending -- just keep my eye open to external madness and perhaps put some space between me and large population or something.
Since I generally don't believe anyone has ever pro...
I reflected on why I didn’t feel overwhelming debilitating sadness due to x-risk and realized that “there’s no rule that says you should be sad if you aren’t feeling sad.”
Even a recent widow in a previously happy marriage shouldn’t feel bad about not feeling sad if they find themselves not being sad.
Why can’t this too be a trope: having had the thought “I’m a writer and can write myself; I can write internal scripts for what I do and how I react,” the character believes he has near-perfect agency over how he feels, thinks, and acts, until one day a particular stress test (in an accelerating series of increasingly rigorous stress tests) suggests that he doesn’t.
One could incorrectly summarize all this as "I have decided not to expect to go insane," but that would violate the epistemic-instrumental firewall and therefore be insane.
would a saner alternative then go in the lines of:
"I have decided to entertain thoughts and actions under the expectation that I will not go insane, because that's the most adaptive and constructive way to face this situation, even though I can't be certain"?
if so, I see a good dynamic for sanity;
- choose (non egocentric & constructive) narrative;
- guide thoughts to fit chosen narrative.
slightly tangential question: how do you maintain coherence/continuity of narrative across contexts?
Nope. Breaks the firewall. Exactly as insane.
Beliefs are for being true. Use them for nothing else.
If you need a good thing to happen, use a plan for that.
"I was rolling my eyes about how they'd now found a new way of being the story's subject"
That reads to me like it's still rolling eyes at a status overreach, just a slightly different one than the one most people would roll their eyes at
For those wondering about Raistlin Majere, this is from Wikipedia:
« Born to a mother prone to trance-like fits and a woodcutter father, Raistlin inherited his mother's aptitude for magic. He undertook and passed the arduous Test of High Sorcery, but in the process, he acquired white hair and golden skin and was cursed with hourglass eyes which saw the effects of time on all things. His health, while never robust, was ruined further, leaving him weak and subject to frequent bouts of coughing blood. Initially wearing the white robes of good, as the first series progresses Raistlin's powers increase while his mood and actions darken, he goes to neutral red robes for the majority of the "War of the Lance" series until he adopts the black robes of evil while under the tutelage of "Fistandantilus" during the War of the Lance.
Raistlin, although physically very weak, is extremely intelligent, and possesses uncommonly powerful magical abilities. While ruthless in his pursuit of power, he holds to a code of conduct which repays all debts and protects those disadvantaged through no fault of their own. His relationship with his much stronger, better-liked, and good-natured twin brother Caramon is fraught with tensions as Caramon seeks to protect and shelter his weaker brother while denying his cruelty and penchant for hurting any others while in pursuit of his goals. »
Being crazy is unpleasant. Even when it produces feelings of intense euphoria or meaning it destroys agency both at the level of being able to move and the more Kantian level of being able to understand. One alternative solution then would be like the "making your kid smoke an entire carton of cigarettes" solution. Lots of people do LSD, do Mushrooms, do DMT, once or with sporadic frequency, and this turns into some sort of secularized come to Jesus moment for them, where the scales fell off their eyes, and they learned about the complex, limited, real virtues of being insane, became an expert in them in fact, maybe the only expert, and go around trying to curate insanity in other people, judging it, cultivating it. The opportunity cost of making a person be continuously crazy for a year or more is extremely high but I suspect, capable of producing empirical refutation of some perspectives.
And a fiat decision to stay sane, implemented by not instructing myself that any particular stupidity or failure will be my reaction to future stress.
I have not implemented the other two, but this decision I made during HPPD-like psychosis; yes, it is for some a learnable skill.
I think you are severely underestimating how relatable and common your thoughts on this topic are (also to many journalists). In short, you underestimate people's capacity to get this (probably because they are out-of-distribution for your way of structured reasoning in general, to borrow LW 2.0 lingo).
If I would make a guess, I think that (self-aware) people outside of LW and similar circles may be even more likely to relate to several of these points than people inside of LW. For example, "a sentence about snow is words, is made of words, but it is about...
Eliezer, on number three: I give it a 5% chance that I'm talking about the same thing as you, and that's before applying my overconfidence factor of 0.6. You're talking about injecting instructions into your motor plan. I'm visualing doing the thing really hard. It seems to work? It's like I'm deliberately making a few predictions about the next few seconds, and just continuing to visualise those things rather than thinking about something else, then I just start moving. Is this the same thing you're talking about? Or am I just doing some form of "Yud said...
I think the journalistic conceit behind the "how are you coping" question in this context amounts to treacle, and I see value in the frame of eschewing genre. Where I get stuck is that I think the trope/response that the question is intended to elicit would, under the indulged journalistic narrative, play more along the lines of a rational restatement of the Serenity Prayer. In other words, in the script as put, the Eliezer Yudkowsky "character" is being prompted not to give vent to emotive self-concern, but to articulate a more grounded, calm and focused ...
Thanks for the interesting peak into your brain. I have a couple thoughts to share on how my own approaches relate.
The first is related to watching plenty of sci-fi apocalyptic future movies. While it's exciting to see the hero's adventures, I'd like to think that I'd be one of the scrappy people trying to hold some semblance of civilization together. Or the survivor trying to barter and trade with folks instead of fighting over stuff. In general, even in the face of doom, just trying to help minimize suffering unto the end. So the 'death with dignity' eth...
I think I know of the trick you are talking about, in that there does seem to be an obvious pseudoprediction place in my mind that interfaces with motor output, and it's obviously different from actually believing, or trying to believe. However I mostly can't manage more than twitches or smaller motor movements, and it gets harder the more resistant I am to doing it (thus, less useful the more I would need use of it). If I'm thinking of the right thing, then the failure of me to sometimes send the pseudoprediction to my muscles seems to be the cause of som...
Oh come on, Eliezer. These strategies aren't that alien.
I remember a time in my early years, feeling apprehensive about entering adolescence and inevitably transforming into a stereotypical rebellious teenager. It would have been not only boring and cliche but also an affront to every good thing I thought about myself. I didn't want to become a rebellious teenager, and so I decided, before I was overwhelmed with teenage hormones, that I wouldn't become one. And it turns out that intentional steering of one's self-narrative can (sometimes) be quite effectiv...
"There exists a place in your cognition that feels like an expectation but actually stores an action plan that your body will follow, and you can load plans into it." is a valuable insight and I'm not sure I've seen it stated quite in that form elsewhere.
Do you have more you could say about how cognition works, or reliable references to point at?
Everything I've read is either true but too specific or low level to be useful (on the science end) or mixed with nonsense (on the meditation end), and my own mind is too muddled to easily distinguish true facts about how it works from almost-true facts about how it works. This makes building up a reliable model really hard.
The human brain is just a wacky biological tangle, the same way that human metabolism repurposes the insanely reactive chemical byproduct of superoxide as a key signaling molecule.
It sounds like you read Petro Dobromylsky's Hyperlipid and Brad Marshall's Fire in a Bottle!
Translating this to the mental script that works for me:
If I picture myself in the role of the astronauts on the Columbia as it was falling apart, or a football team in the last few minutes of a game where they're twenty points behind, I know the script calls for just keeping up your best effort (as you know it) until after the shuttle explodes or the buzzer sounds. So I can just do that.
Why is there an alternative script that calls to go insane? I think because there's a version that equates that with a heroic effort, that thinks that if I dramatize and j...
My method of staying sane is way less complicated.
I am not unique or special. I am human. Ergo things that keep humans sane should work on me.
So I read up on mental health and then did those things. Sleep, nutrition, exercise, sunshine, make friends, community service, clean air.
It's likely I may still experience issues later in life. But all life is always temporary. It's about the now, appreciating this moment when I have a dog beside me and a snoring spouse and a wool blanket and a nice book.
I can only control what I can control.
I'm learning rock carving. Rocks are awesome and last through lots of disasters.
"How are you coping with the end of the world?" journalists sometimes ask me, and the true answer is something they have no hope of understanding and I have no hope of explaining in 30 seconds, so I usually answer something like, "By having a great distaste for drama, and remembering that it's not about me." The journalists don't understand that either, but at least I haven't wasted much time along the way.
Actual LessWrong readers also sometimes ask me how I deal emotionally with the end of the world.
I suspect a more precise answer may not help. But Raymond Arnold thinks I should say it, so I will say it.
I say again, I don't actually think my answer is going to help. Wisely did Ozy write, "Other People Might Just Not Have Your Problems." Also I don't have a bunch of other people's problems, and other people can't make internal function calls that I've practiced to the point of hardly noticing them. I don't expect that my methods of sanity will be reproducible by nearly anyone. I feel pessimistic that they will help to hear about. Raymond Arnold asked me to speak them anyways, so I will.
The first and oldest reason I stay sane is that I am an author, and above tropes. Going mad in the face of the oncoming end of the world is a trope.
I consciously see those culturally transmitted patterns that inhabit thought processes aka tropes, both in fiction, and in the narratives that people try to construct around their lives and force their lives into.
The trope of somebody going insane as the world ends, does not appeal to me as an author, including in my role as the author of my own life. It seems obvious, cliche, predictable, and contrary to the ideals of writing intelligent characters. Nothing about it seems fresh or interesting. It doesn't tempt me to write, and it doesn't tempt me to be.
It would not be in the interests of an intelligent protagonist to amplify their own distress about an apocalypse into more literarily dramatic ill-chosen behavior. It might serve the interests of a hack author but it would not help the character. Understanding that distinction is the first step toward writing more intelligent characters in fiction. I use a similar and older mental skill to decide which tropes to write into the character that is myself.
This sense -- which I might call, genre-savviness about the genre of real life -- is historically where I began; it is where I began, somewhere around age nine, to choose not to become the boringly obvious dramatic version of Eliezer Yudkowsky that a cliche author would instantly pattern-complete about a literary character facing my experiences. Specifically, though I expect this specific to mean nothing to a supermajority of you, I decided that as a relatively smart kid I would not become Raistlin Majere, nor ever exhibit a large collection of related tropes.
The same Way applies, decades later, to my not implementing the dramatic character a journalist dreams up -- a very boring and predictable pattern-completion of a character -- when they dream up a convenient easy-to-write-about Eliezer Yudkowsky who is a loudly tortured soul about his perception of the world's end approaching along its default course.
"How are you coping?" journalists sometimes ask me, and sometimes nowadays they have become worried themselves and want to know for themselves if there's a key to coping. But often today, and before ChatGPT almost always, they are planning a Character-Focused Story about how my Tortured Soul deals with an imaginary apocalypse, to exhibit to their readers like a parent takes their kids to the zoo to stare at a strange animal. I reply to them "I have a great distaste for drama", but the actual answer is "I am a better writer than you, and I decided not to write myself as that incredibly cliche person that would be easy and convenient for you to write about."
"Going insane because the world is ending" would be a boring trope and beneath my dignity to choose as my actual self's character.
"How are you coping with the end of the world?" journalists sometimes ask me, and I sometimes reply, "By remembering that it's not about me." They have no hope of understanding what I mean by this, I predict, because to them I am the subject of the story and it has not occurred to them that there's a whole planet out there too to be the story-subject. I think there's probably a sense in which the Earth itself is not a real thing to most modern journalists.
The journalist is imagining a story that is about me, and about whether or not I am going insane, not just because it is an easy cliche to write, but because personality is the only real thing to the journalist.
This is also a pattern that you can refuse, when you write the story that is yourself; it doesn't have to be a story that is ultimately about you. It can be about humanity, humane preferences, and galaxies. A sentence about snow is words, is made of words, but it is about snow. You are made of you, but you don't need to be all about yourself.
If I were to dwell on how it impacted me emotionally that the world was ending, I would be thinking about something which genuinely doesn't matter to me very much compared to how the world is ending. Having dramatic feelings is not mostly what I am about -- which is partly how I ended up being not much made of them, either; but either way, they're not what I'm about.
So long ago that you probably can't imagine what it was like back then, not just before ChatGPT but years before the age of deep learning at all, there was a person who thought they were like totally going to develop Artificial General Intelligence. Then they ran into me; and soon after, instead started agonizing about how they had almost destroyed the world. Had they actually been that close to success? Of course not. But I don't relate to status as most people do, so that part, the status-overreach, wasn't the part I was rolling my eyes about. It is not the sort of epistemic prediction error that I see as damnable in the way that a status-regulator sees it as the worst thing in the world; to underestimate oneself is no more virtuous than to overestimate oneself. Rather, I was rolling my eyes about the part that was a more blatant mistake, completely apart from the epistemic prediction error they probably couldn't help; the part that would have been a mistake even if they had almost destroyed the world. I was rolling my eyes about how they'd now found a new way of being the story's subject.
Even if they had almost destroyed the world, the story would still not properly be about their guilt or their regret, it would be about almost destroying the world. This is why, in a much more real and also famous case, President Truman was validly angered and told "that son of a bitch", Oppenheimer, to fuck off, after Oppenheimer decided to be a drama queen at Truman. Oppenheimer was trying to have nuclear weapons be about Oppenheimer's remorse at having helped create nuclear weapons. This feels obviously icky to me; I would not be surprised if Truman felt very nearly the same.
And so similarly I did not make a great show of regret about having spent my teenage years trying to accelerate the development of self-improving AI. Was it a mistake? Sure. Should I promote it to the center of my narrative in order to make the whole thing be about my dramatic regretful feelings? Nah. I had AGI concerns to work on instead.
I did not neglect to conduct a review of what I did wrong and update my policies; you know some of those updates as the Sequences. But that is different from re-identifying myself as a dramatic repentent sinner who had thereby been the story's subject matter.
In a broadly similar way: If at some point you decide that the narrative governing your ongoing experience will be about you going insane because the world is ending: Wow, congratulations at making the end of the world still be about you somehow.
The third way I stay sane is a fiat decision to stay sane.
My mental landscape contains that option; I take it.
This is the point I am even less expecting to be helpful, or to correspond to any actionable sort of plan for most readers.
I will nonetheless go into more detail that will probably not make any sense.
Besides being a thing I can just decide, my decision to stay sane is also something that I implement by not writing an expectation of future insanity into my internal script / pseudo-predictive sort-of-world-model that instead connects to motor output.
(Frankly I expect almost nobody to correctly identify those words of mine as internally visible mental phenomena after reading them; and I'm worried about what happens if somebody insists on interpreting it anyway. Seriously, if you don't see phenomena inside you that obviously looks like what I'm describing, it means, you aren't looking at the stuff I'm talking about. Do not insist on interpreting the words anyway. If you don't see an elephant, don't look under every corner of the room until you find something that could maybe be an elephant.)
One of the ways you can get up in the morning, if you are me, is by looking in the internal direction of your motor plans, and writing into your pending motor plan the image of you getting out of bed in a few moments, and then letting that image get sent to motor output and happen. (To be clear, I actually do this very rarely; it is just a fun fact that this is a way I can defeat bed inertia.)
There are a lot of neighboring bad ideas to confuse this with. The trick I'm describing above does not feel like desperately hyping myself up and trying to believe I will get out of bed immediately, with a probability higher than past experience would suggest. It doesn't involve lying to myself about whether I'm likely to get up. It doesn't involve violating the epistemic-instrumental firewall (factual questions absolutely separated from the consequences of believing things), to give myself a useful self-fulfilling prophecy. It is not any of the absurd epistemic-self-harming bullshit that people are now flogging under brand names like "hyperstition", since older names like "chaos magick" or "lying to yourself" became less saleable. I still expect to them to point to this and say, "Why, of course that is the same thing I am selling to you as 'hyperstition'!" because they would prefer not to look at my finger, never mind being able to see where I'm pointing.
With that said: The getting-out-of-bed trick involves looking into the part of my cognition where my action plan is stored, and loading an image into it; and because the human brain's type system is a mess, this has the native type-feeling of an expectation or prediction that in a few seconds I will execute the motor-plan and get out of bed.
That I am working with cognitive stuff with that type-feel, is not the same thing as lying to myself about what's likely to happen; no, not even as a self-fulfilling prophecy. I choose to regard the piece of myself whose things-that-feel-like-predictions get sent as default motor output, as having the character within my Way of a plan I am altering; rather than, you know, an actual mistaken prediction that I am believing. If that piece of myself gets to have me roll out of bed, I get to treat it as a plan rather than as a prediction. It feels internally like a prediction? Don't believe everything you feel. It's a pseudo-model that outputs a pseudo-prediction that does update in part from past experience, but its actual cognitive role is as a controller.
The key step is not meditating on some galaxy-brained bullshit about Lob's Theorem, until you've convinced yourself that things you believe become true. It's about being able to look at the internal place where your mind stores a pseudo-predictive image of staying in bed, and writing instead a pseudo-prediction about getting out of bed, and then letting that flow to motor output three seconds later.
It is perhaps an unfortunate or misleading fact about the world (but a fact, so I deal with it), that people telling themselves galaxy-brained bullshit about Lob's Theorem or "hyperstition" may end up expecting that to work for them; which overwrites the pseudo-predictive controlling output, and so it actually does work for them. That is allowed to be a thing that is true, for reality is reality. But you don't have to do it the scrub's way.
Perceiving my internal processes on that level, I choose:
I will not write internal scripts which say that I am supposed to / pseudo-predict that I will, do any particular stupid or dramatic thing in response to the end of the world approaching visibly nearer in any particular way.
I don't permit it as a narrative, I don't permit it as a self-indulgence, and I don't load it into my pseudo-predictive self-model as a pending image that gets sent by default to internal cognitive motor outputs.
If you go around repeating to yourself that it would be only natural to respond to some stressful situation by going insane -- if you think that some unhelpful internal response is the normal, the default, the supposed-to reaction to some unhelpful external stimulus -- that belief is liable to wire itself in as being also the pseudo-prediction of the pseudo-model that loads your default thoughts.
One could incorrectly summarize all this as "I have decided not to expect to go insane," but that would violate the epistemic-instrumental firewall and therefore be insane.
(All of this is not to be confused with the confused doctrine of active inference. That a brain subsystem sometimes repurposes a previously evolved piece of predictive machinery as a generalizing cache system that then sends its outputs as control signals, does not reveal some deep law about prediction and planning being the same thing. They're not. Deep Blue made no use of that idiom, purely separated prediction from planning, and worked just fine. The human brain is just a wacky biological tangle, the same way that human metabolism repurposes the insanely reactive chemical byproduct of superoxide as a key signaling molecule. It doesn't have to be that way for deep theoretical reasons; it's just biology being a tangle.)
(All of this is not to be confused with the Buddhist doctrine that every form of negative internal experience is your own fault for not being Buddhist enough. If you rest your hand on a hot stove, you will feel pain not because your self-pseudo-model pseudo-predicts this to be painful, but because there's direct nerves that go straight to brain areas and trigger pain. The internal mechanism for this does not depend on a controlling pseudo-prediction, it just falls downward like a stone under gravity. The same directness is allowed to be true about suffering and not just pain; if there's a clever way to overwrite pseudo-predictions of suffering and thereby achieve Buddhist indifference to bad things, I don't have it as a simple obvious surface lever to pull. I also haven't chosen to go looking for a more complicated or indirect version of it. I do not particularly trust that to end well.
But I do think there are various forms of drama, error, and insanity which are much more like "things people do because they expected themselves to do it"; and much less like the pain, or suffering, from burning your hand.)
There's an edition of Dungeons and Dragons that has a god of self-improvement, called Irori. My fanfictions sometimes include characters that worship Him (heresy), or seek what He sought (approved).
In my fictional reification, Irori's religion has mottos like, "You don't have problems, you have skill issues." Irorians can be a bit harsh.
But even if something is a skill issue, that doesn't mean you have the skill, nor know how to solve it.
When an Irorian calls something a skill issue, they're not instructing you to feel bad about having not solved it already.
They are trying to convey the hope that it is solvable.
Doing crazy things because your brain started underproducing a neurotransmitter is a problem. It wouldn't be very Irorian to tell you that you can't solve it just through even clearer thinking; but if there's a medication that directly fixes the problem, that is probably easier and faster and more effective. Also, this isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Irori isn't real, and possibly you genuinely can't solve a neurotransmitter problem by thinking at it.
Doing crazy things because the world is ending is a skill issue.
These then are Eliezer Yudkowsky's probably-irreproducible ways of staying sane as the world seems more visibly close to ending:
A distaste for the boringly obvious trope of a character being driven mad by impending doom;
Not making the story be all about me, including my dramatically struggling to retain my sanity;
And a fiat decision to stay sane, implemented by not instructing myself that any particular stupidity or failure will be my reaction to future stress.
Probably you cannot just go do those three things.
Then figure out your own ways of staying sane, whether they be reproducible or irreproducible; and follow those ways instead.
The reason that I tell you of my own three methods, is not to provide an actionable recipe for staying sane as the world begins to seem visibly closer to ending.
It is an example, a reminder, and maybe even an instruction to a part of yourself that produces self-pseudo-predictions that get loaded as your internal mental behavior:
Sanity is a skill issue.