30/07/2023 22:31 The Ultimate Karabela Guide - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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24th August 2021, 07:30 PM #1

awdaniec666 The Ultimate Karabela Guide

Member
Hello there!
I´d like to start a new thread about sabers of the Karabela type. I have already seen an old one on this forum
which seems abandoned for a while.

My goal is to share and gather information consisting of pictures and data on weapon-architecture (point of balance,
blade lenght etc.) and design linked with specific time periods and origin.
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany I will post information condensed in parts for this thread.
Posts: 98
This topic has been researched with passion by people like Andrzej Nadolski, Wojciech Zablocki, Zdzislaw Zygulski or
Wlodzimierz Kwasniewicz. I will share information I have gathered from many of these sources and original antiques.
This could be interesting to non-polish speakers since I dont know of any translations of their works and authentic
antiques are hard to get ones hands on.

The following text is meant to be useful for beginners and people already familiar with sabers in general. If anybody
wants more information or is seeing wrong information on a certain topic, please comment.

I am aware of the fact that it is necessary to use some form of classification when talking about "swords". I would
propose using the one set up by Wojciech Zablocki since its the easiest, yet still an accurate one.

One disclaimer left:

Andrzej Nadolski, one of the godfathers of antique polish saber research wrote in his book "Polish Arms" that the
saber we call "Karabela" was called "szabla czarna" (Black saber) back then.
What does he mean by that? He further (fully rightly) distinguishes between
battle and parade version of sabers with that typical "Karabela"-hilt. In his opinion "szabla czarna" meant the
battle-version, the term Karabela however is said to be used for the parade versions (Karabela kontuszowa;
"kontusz" is the traditional polish dress from the sarmation period in Poland reaching its peak in times of Jan III
Sobieski in the late 17th century. Polish nobleman (Szlachta) wore decorative versions to this dress. Sometimes with
easy replacable hilts for further battle use of the blade).

I dont aim at researching the origin of the word Karabela or the origin of the saber/hilt as primary
question since this topic leads to a lot of opinions and further professional historical research needs to be done and I
am not a historian but a passionate on antique polish arms. This is important to me.

Writing this text I saw different passages sounding like my appreciation goes solely to the Polish variant of this saber
type. This is not the case and I assure that this little work is free of politics and more, there has been always
admiration from the polish side towards the near-eastern culture.

---
Nomenclatura

I am aware of traditional terms for sword parts. Since I´m not an native english speaker, nor a polish one, I will
translate some parts directly when it comes to Karabela-specific parts. I apologize for wrong terminology and will be
happy and thankful for helpful constructive critique.

Since there is no actual pommel on the Karabela hilt, I will still use this term for the eagle-shaped end of the hilt.
The polish term for that is "glowica" meaning something like "the heading".

Feather: Directly translated from the polish "pioro". This is the part on blades which have a sharpened false edge.
The feather includes the whole part of the blade from the beginning of this false edge towards the tip. Since not all
blades have sharpened false edges, not all blades have a feather. The feather is often marked by a "hammer". The
term used for this part in english literature is the turkish word "Yelmen".

Hammer: Direct translation from "mlotek". This means a prominent part on the false edge on the blade often
seperating the feather from the rest of the blade. Its purpose is thought to strenghten the blade architecture and
force distribution. Some blades have one, some do not.

Beard(s): Translation from "wasy". This is the horizontal part going up-and downwards off the quillons. The beard
going towards the blade is made to seal and rest on the surface of the sabers scabbard. The one going towards the
grip is part of the grip attachment. (I searched for langets but am usure if its the same, sorry!)

Szewrony: "V-shaped" cuttings in the softer shell-parts of the grip made to protect the grip from slipping out of the
hand.

---

PART 1
---
Wojciech Zablocki´s (Further: "Mr.Z") classification of karabela-hilt sabers
(Source: "Ciecia prawdziwa szabla" 1989, p. 76)

Mr.Z: Has been a famous polish olympic fencer in the 70s and professional architect. As a passionate on antique

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30/07/2023 22:31 The Ultimate Karabela Guide - Ethnographic Arms & Armour
polish arms he researched sabers especially from a fencers point of view. He described the combat characteristics for
antique sabers and extracted theorys of practical fencing use for these weapons. His main interest lied in battle
versions. Parade versions of sabers are uncommon in his analysis. Therefore the following classification describes
those sabers which were knowingly used in battle or offer themselves by design to be used in such.

Mr. Z. categorizes polish sabers into different groups numbered with roman numbers. Class "I" are sabers we
recognize as "16th-18th century polish hussar sabers". Those sabers we understand as "Karabela" are given
the number "II".
He suggests dividing class II into three sub-groups: IIa, IIb and IIc. Differences are mainly in blade design,
but also partially hilt design too.

All class II sabers have the specific hilt design in common which looks like an abstract eagle head looking from the
flat sides of the blade.

This classification is, of course, an open one, meaning there is no black and white. Some sabers share and mix
characteristics.

---

Mr. Z´s classification

IIa:
"Sabers with blades shapes consisting of a changing curvature (meaning "not forming a part of a perfect circle) and
a broadened tip with a hammer with an anatomical grip broadening towards the pommel used from the 17th to the
first half of the 18th century.

IIb:
Sabers with blades shaped as part of a perfect circle, without broadened, with an anatomical grip not broadening
towards the pommel, used in the second hald of the 18th century.

IIc:
Short sabers ("tasak", old word which comes from czech meaning chopper, see also: Dussack/dussege. Tassak-
>Dussack->Dussege; sometimes called sinclair saber by english speakers but that isnt the same at all) with short
and broad blades, with anatomical grips, broadening towards the pommel and quillons often bend towards the tip.
Used in the 17th-18th century.

---

Functionality

"Class II sabers have the following functional-constructional atributes:

IIa and IIb are designed for tangential cuts from the wrist (Fencing on foot) and chopping cuts from the shoulder
(Fighting from horseback). Under the defensive point of view this sabers are made for reflecting/deflecting parades."

Explanation for non-fencers: There are static parades (blocks/parries) and dynamic ones. The dynamic ones can be
deflecting (adjusting the own blade to let the opponents blade slide down it) and reflecting parades (answering the
opponents attack with a quick and short hit against the incoming attack to "deflect" the enemy and quickly do a
riposte (answer-attack)). Class II is supposed to be used in the last manner since it enables the fencer to act very
fast in theory. Mr.Z. claims this fencing style is easy to learn by beginners and very useful for experienced fencers.

Holding the Class II saber: One can hold the saber like a hammer with the thumb around the grip (Horseback-
fighting) or place the thumb on the back of the grip for additional control (Fencing on foot). The main advantage of
the specific "beak of the eagle" is in locking ones pinky finger tighly on it to ensure a secure grip. This is what he
means when describing this grip as "anatomical".

---

Grip construction (Based on my experience and knowledge from literature and authentic antiques)

There are two ways class II hilts can be built. The main idea is to have the eagle-head shaped grip parts made of
wood, bone or other materials securely attached to the blade by stabilizing it with metal parts shaped in the same
form.

1. "Simple sandwich design"/"Full-tang-design": The blade has been made in a way that the tang already has been
shaped in eagle-head form. Either primarily or secondary: Forging it in one go or attaching a plate to a simple tang
afterwards. The softer grip plates are now attached by rivets through (mostly 3) holes in that tang from both sides.
This is the strongest construction. It shares similarities with the hilt design of the german "Langes Messer".

2.1. "Uni-Blade-Design": The blade is made with a simple, thin and round tang met on sabers of all kinds. This same
tang can be also peened to a pommel-style hilt in a typical "sword-manner". Since we want it to be mounted on a
class II hilt, we need to weld it secondarily to a eagle-head shaped piece of metal which forms a "tub". "Tub" means
it forms edges going in a 90° angle away from the flat piece for the softer "shell-parts" (again, wood, bone or other
materials) to be placed securely in there.

2.2. The tub construction can be replaced with a simple flat metal plate. The break between the soft shell-parts and
the metal can be now covered with a metal tape around the grip. This construction is the weakest one and many of
antique saber hilts made this way are in bad condition after those 300-200 years.

---

The raw way of differentiating a polish Class II saber from near-eastern (NE) ones after Mr.Z.

This is only valid for Class II sabers in our context!

- Polish grips have an eagle-beak which forms an angle of max. 90° to the grip. Near-eastern hilts can be bent in the
same angle but are mostly more open (>90°). More open beaks are an advantage in certain fencing techniques but
carry a higher risk of losing the weapon when parried hardly.

- Polish grips are rounded, not flat, with the back of the grip still narrower then the sides. This enables the fencer to
carry out moulinets. Near-eastern hilts tend to have more round grips.

- Polish blades (Blade made for polish class II sabers) are shaped to form a curvature consisting of two perfect circle-
parts (here you have to differentiate between IIa, IIb and IIc) with a short straight part between them. Near-eastern
blades (Again, I mean blades for NE-sabers) tend to have more complicated shapes.

- Polish blades commonly have a more pronounced "feather" in opposition to NE ones. There are known examples of
the opposite, but keep in mind there is no black and white and we do a generalization here.
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30/07/2023 22:31 The Ultimate Karabela Guide - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

- Polish grips broaden towards the pommel. Szewrons, rivets and all decoration are always made to protect from
sliding and ease the holding of the weapon. NE-grips stay the same thickness and decorative elements have no
functionality.

Mr.Z´s short usage conclusion: NE-style sabers were mainly designed for chopping attacks from the shoulder. Polish
sabers had the "advantage" of a grip designed for movement from the wrist. Overall, thse differences are not a big
deal and come in play when comparing advanced fencing styles.

---

Quillons and beards

The Quillons can be straight, forming a cross or bend towards the tip. Class II sabers have no knuckle-bow or any
other protection. Quillon lenght goes from 8 to 14 cm. They were made of stell or brass. Endings had different
shapes but always in a simple style like spheres or rhomboids. Those bend towards the tip could have fish-tail
looking shapes.

Beards are mostly from 7-9 cm in lenght (both together), mostly formed triangular with a rounded peak.

---

Who used the Class II saber in the 17th and 18th century (Mr.Z.´s Overview)

- Ottoman Empire (mainly auxillary troops from the balkans, see Side-Info 1)
- Russia
- Moldavia
- Armenia
- Poland-Lithuania
- Marocco (similar style but with very short quillons; Museum Armeria Reala, Madrid, Spain; Items No. M45 and
M46)

Side-info 1: In 16th and 17th century ottoman armies armor w asstored and distributed centrally, sabers were given out
by the provinces setting out certain troops.

---

Physics

This one is interesting and helpful. To enable scientific comparison of whole weapons when it comes to handling and
way of usage, Mr.Z set up a simple equasion:

A/B

A: Blade lenght in mm
B: Point of balance (PoB) in mm (usually measured from the middle of the quillons)

He took this data from many sabers in museums and private collections to determine "standarts".

His results for the polish ones:

- Polish Class II: 3,50 - 4,00 (main mass is located towards the hilt)
- Polish Class I: 4,5 - 5,5

(Keep in mind that blade were often re-used. If a Class I saber blade would be used on a Class II hilt this variable
would grow to over 5,5)

He introduced a compoment C: Maximum curvature (this is measured from 1. the straight line (lets call it line X)
between middle of quillons to the tip and 2. the point on the blade located farest away from that line X.

The following logical step is therefore (A:B):C

Polish Class II: 4-8

Ottoman Class II: 9-24
---

END OF PART 1
Please comment!
Part 2 will consist of few selected examples with images
Until then!!!
Last edited by awdaniec666; 25th August 2021 at 06:19 PM.

26th August 2021, 04:43 AM #2

Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
Wow! This is outstanding, and welcome. Talk about a great entrance, and I like the way you have skillfully outlined
the elements of the study of this fascinating sword form.
I like that you have noted the difficulties and issues with determining the etymology and origins of the 'karabela'
term, which typically leads to distracting from the course of study of the form itself.

Also the political aspects of the karabela as far as its profound association with the Polish as a 'national' sword form
often present distraction. That it was deeply revered as a sword form involved in parade and ceremony, as well as in
Join Date: Dec 2004 battle is well noted, but its presence elsewhere is important to remember in addition to the Polish context.
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,318 Nadolski does have an English version of his book, but the others do not as far as I have known.
Another excellent work which is in English is "The Polish Saber: Its Origin and Evolution", Jan Ostrowski, 'Anthology
of Arms & Armor, ed. Robert Held, vol.I
1979-80, pp.221-237.
In this he does give interesting overview on the karabela.

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We have discussed the karabela many times over the past two decades here, mostly examining examples and
discussions of their elements and features. As far as I recall there has been little attention to the more detailed
descriptive terms (i.e.szabla czarna etc.) and the term karabela used collectively for the examples discussed.

It is great that you have added the nomenclature. While most here are familiar with the yelman term, I had only
heard the 'feather' aspect many years ago from a Polish fencing master in New York.

You note English, nor Polish are not your first languages, but your thorough entry here is excellent. I look forward to
seeing more discussion, and hope that those out there with examples of these sabers will post them for benefit of
those discussions.

All very best regards

Jim

26th August 2021, 04:13 PM #3

Oliver Pinchot
Member
Interesting work, awdaniec. Look forward to part II
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 454

26th August 2021, 07:52 PM #4

Interested Party
Member
Great info. It dovetails nicely into some of my other reading. Especially the moulinets and shoulder vs. wrist cuts. I
love bringing in practical applications of these items into our study of the metals, artistic decorative techniques, and
cultural importance of pre-20th century edged weapons.

On a slight tangent. Would most sabers with a pommel that is bent forward ninety degrees or more from the hilt be
for use of the moulinet? I.e. the Caucasian shaska?

Yours,
Join Date: Dec 2019 I.P.
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 304

26th August 2021, 11:22 PM #5

Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
Interesting aspects I.P. though not sure most technical elements of fencing or sword fighting techniques are widely
familiar to many researching these weapons. What I could find in Ostrowski ("The Polish Saber: Its Origin and
Evolution", op.cit. 1979, p.233.

"karabela hilts have the shape of a stylized birds head................

...this shape assured a firm grip but like all Eastern sabers, the karabela was suitably chiefly for inflicting single
slashes, in a duel, it required an uncomfortably high position of the hand and continuous parrying with the blade only
Join Date: Dec 2004 instead of with blade, quillons and guard".
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,318 It is also noted that parade or dress examples often had damascene blades while combat versions had the same type
blades as hussar sabers.

It appears that the oldest examples in Poland were among those captured in Vienna in 1683, and of course Turkish.
By the second half of the 18th century the karabela had become a 'national' form and widely known during the
campaigns for Polish independence and worn in a patriotic sense.

Apparently by second half 19th c. most examples were made in Cracow, Lvov and Vienna.

Other resources I do not have access to, but would be useful are by C. Jarnuszkiewicz :
"The Oriental Saber and its History and Technical Development", 1926
"The Oriental Saber and National Types", 1973
Both I believe are in Polish, but the 1973 publication was in London.

27th August 2021, 03:49 PM #6

awdaniec666
Member
Thanks again for those kind words!
You made few interesting points there Jim on which i wanted to briefly respond here, but get into in detail in a later
part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
"(...), it required an uncomfortably high position of the hand and continuous parrying with the blade only
Posts: 98 instead of with blade, quillons and guard".

I think it was Zablocki who reported the "standart stance" for fencing with karabela-type sabers was the "seconde",
for those who arent familiar with that: This means you hold the weapon with a very slightly bent ellbow with the hilt
on the height of your eyes and the tip pointing in an angle of about 45° downwards and a little forward towards the
opponent. I used to use this stance in a different saber-school and can say that it really tires your arm in the
beginning but you get used to it. The main benefit of that stance is according to F.C.Christmann (German fencing
master of Napoleonic dragoons and author of a fencing manual published in 1838) in beeing able to apply a lot of
force into a cut by using the leverage of your wrist only ("moulinet-like-cuts").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

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30/07/2023 22:31 The Ultimate Karabela Guide - Ethnographic Arms & Armour
It is also noted that parade or dress examples often had damascene blades while combat versions had the
same type blades as hussar sabers.

I would love to see examples of those since I honestly cant remember seeing a damascene or wootz blade mounted
on a karabela. But I know a lot of older battle-blades were mounted later on parade versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Apparently by second half 19th c. most examples were made in Cracow, Lvov and Vienna.

Indeed! Just to bring two names of decent karabela makers: Ignacy Hofelmayer from Cracow who worked in the
mid 19th century and creating Karabelas in such a way that a lot of auctions houses nowadays have problems in
telling the age and declare them as 18th century. I think price wouldnt be the reason since Hofelmayer sabers are
very desired. Another makers were in Munich. Their names were Thomas and his son Johan Baptist Stroblberger. The
father founded the workshop in 1791.

27th August 2021, 10:23 PM #7

awdaniec666
Member
Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

On a slight tangent. Would most sabers with a pommel that is bent forward ninety degrees or more from the
hilt be for use of the moulinet? I.e. the Caucasian shaska?

Join Date: May 2021 For what I understand of fencing and deducting from Mr.Z´s description moulinets are riskier the opener the pommel
Location: Northern Germany angle is because of the lack of "locking" your fingers into it it. This indeed is just an educated guess!
Posts: 98

28th August 2021,

08:50 PM

awdaniec666 The Ultimate Karabela Guide PART 2

Member
In this part I will try to bring some hopefully clear examples to allow a first approach for determining the origin and age of a Karabela-t
will be called like in the foregoing part "Class II" (after Mr.Z´s classification we now know).

The following pictures are from books which I own, past auction lots and also from forums around the world (this one and also some R
which I walked through with a translator addon for my browser). Since this Guide is obviously for educational purposes only I will try m
sources well. If anybody has an issue with an image posted, please contact me and I will try to replace the image.
Join Date: May
2021 ----
Location: Northern
Germany
The Ultimate Karabela Guide Part 2
Posts: 98 ---

Now that we had a brief but solid overview of the characteristics of Karabela-type sabers under the umbrella of Mr.Z´s classification, its
visual context.
The human mind works best with putting things into its neural drawers. The expert on a certain topic is differentiated from the beginne
bridges between different straight paths and allowing the variable "OR" coming into one's considerations. Therefore I will not get tired
mantra which was also mentioned in Part 1 of this Guide: There is no black and white.

Example:

"Polish karabela-type sabers had a pommel bent by a maximum of 90° degrees AND NE (Near-eastern) ones had a more open pomme

The next step is bringing in our new friend "OR". Conclusion:

"Karabela-type sabers with a pommel bent by max. 90° are of polish origin OR can be of NE origin depending on different other aspect
found on a specific weapon."

The other aspects can be specific ethnic decoration, makers' marks, blade architecture, and many others.

---
A (very brief) look on the Class II history

As I continued to write I have seen a big informational gap when it comes to the time period in which Class II has been used, what it lo
specific times, what the main purpose was (decoration/parade sword or for battle) and what materials were used.
I will address this problem here briefly to give a glimpse at my way to put things into some order.

Poland:

Today's Poland has a little in common when compared to its historical geography and ethnic mix. When talking about Poland in the sen
about Class II sabers, I mostly mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (PLC) which existed from 1569 until 1795. This time period
peak of use for this kind of weapon in history and all places it was actually used. PLC was home not only to the Polish and Lithuanian p
Armenians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Huns, Germans, Czech, Jews (I´m of course aware of the fact that Jewish culture is defined by its religi
it's a very distinguishable culture) and many more. This comes into play since the troops of the PLC were composed of those different e
One PLC nobleman could have had a Class IIa saber with certain decoration on it which resembled his, f.e., extreme Catholic belief and
because he may not have used backhand cuts. Another PLC nobleman with his IIa saber could have been more on a political trip and th
swordmaker to put his king's image in gold on the blade and wanting a very long feather since backhand cuts were his favourite way of
that in mind that every antique weapon belonged to a real person as you, with different tastes and things that were important to them
personal item and made to assist in surviving an often very rough environment.

The earliest Class II-like sabers are said to be from the late 16th century and are supposed to come from the near east. One theory is
swords evolved from an early Byzantine short curved sword with a stylized birds-head grip. This can be true or may be false, it doesn't
purposes.
What does matter is what is hanging in different museum or private collections and can be therefore taken into consideration. Simply h

We see that the time period in which Karabelas started to get more and more decorative and for parade purposes is the mid-18th centu
had more complicated hilt designs (often accompanying a weaker construction and therefore vulnerable and risky to use in actual battl
that simple looking versions with attributes of a durable weapon are from the time period before, mostly between roughly 1650-1750.

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and parade versions a different part.

Stanislaw Meyer helps us a lot.

[Figure 1]

There is an english version of that but I sadly don't have it. Wschód means "East" and Zachód means "West". Polska means of course P
was naturally everything westwards of Poland on continental Europe and "East" is meant to be the area from Hungary to modern day T
that the "East" and the "West" were influenced by other cultures too, so you will find f.e. Persian influences on Ottoman culture bringin
Hungary and later Poland. Just for short: The Class I saber (I don't like calling it the "Winged Hussars Saber" (really don't like it for his
you should know which type I mean) is such a marriage of East and West. The Polish knights used swords like everyone else in Europe
Longswords) but after a time they adopted sabers which came from the East with different ethnicities like the Huns and Tatars to name
Poles did was to produce sabers with hilt-designs coming from the West, like a thumb-ring. This is just an example. It went further by t
f.e. rapiers by sabers to their regular troops later than Poland and Hungary as we see in the 18th century.

But what is this kind of knowledge good for? Its good for knowing differences of weapon-purpose and therefore materials which limit th
will not find an original example of a battle Class II saber decorated with gems and its grip made of ivory. Battle weapons were made o
in a very durable construction (f.e. see the hilt-design chapter in Part 1).

Class II sabers (all over Eastern Europe and the near-east) were used for battle, mainly from the beginning of the 17th century up to t
century. And that's it! Everything before will be some kind of (maybe even similar looking) predecessor and everything afterwards will
parade version or a memorial saber. There are exceptions but this is something for a different chapter.

What materials can we expect then on early Class II sabers? Simple and durable ones! Good steel was of course a high class technolog
grip shells were made of bone and wood. The guards were made of forged steel with sometimes mixed in silver (I don't know the reaso
though). The rivets were made of brass or steel and could be peened with iron or steel nails.

What techniques of decoration were used for battle Class II sabers? Mainly chiseling on the guard and the blase. Etching has not been
examples with gilded decoration on the blade but this does not exceed very few square centimeters.

With that knowledge we can now take a first try on our first example!

---

The first saber we take a look at is a classical Class II saber similar to the ones one can find in the Museum of the Polish army in Warsa
polisharms.com. There is much to talk about a weapon like this as you will find examining this weapon along with me. As for the image
chosen this picture consciously since a lot of antiques posted in the internet and on auctions sites too is in this (for a person looking for
quality. I won't get into scabbard analysis for now. Firstly we will examine this object straight by Mr.Z´s classification, then we will try t
opinion outside of it.

But lets see what information we can extract from it.

As you are looking at the image, try to use the information given in Part 1 to make an educated guess where this weapon could have c
old it might be!

[Figure 2]

Now, what can be found? We start by the simplest things. Lets just name the materials we can determine.

1. Handle:
-Shell:Very likely dark wood. (Could be oak or ebony alongside few others)
-Rivets: Likely brass with what it seems something unclear inside them
-Spine: Looks like brass too.

2. Guard: Steel (guess: unlikely casted, probably forged)

3. Blade: Simple Steel (But the image doesn't allow for a closer look if there is something like wootz/damascene)

Conclusion:

After this first glance we could say with a good conscience that this is a weapon made for battle use, because we see no gems or gold o
laborious decoration. To strengthen this theory lets go on.

The Grip with its pommel

[Figure 3]

Clearly this shape looks like an abstract eagle head from the side. Its beak seems to form an angle of 90° or less: Going by Mr.Z´s clas
is clearly of Polish origin. If you are stuck at this point and don't know why, take a look at part 1 of this guide.

The wood shells have szewrons and three brass rivets which are hollow.
[Experience input: A lot of hollow rivets were additionally riveted with steel or iron nails. These nails are absent in some antiques becau
of iron or repeated remounting of the blade.]
Nothing else is found in the grip and everything seems to be just for securing the fencers grip on the weapon.

Conclusion:

Again, going after Mr.Z., this is a characteristic of polish Class II.

The Guard

Simple quillons with three lines on each side ended with angular spheroids. The beards are slim. Ones sense of proportion could tell its
long. No further decoration, no inscriptions and no coat of arms.

Conclusion:

The guard here is just practical. For now, it doesn't allow for further investigation about the origin, but we can tell something about the

The blade

The whole shape of the blade is not a part of circle but begins with a straight section on the ricasso (the part of the blade just after the
moves on to form a consistent bow.
We find a feather at the blades later part and a prominent hammer on the edge of it marking the false edge. There are multiple fullers
three. One of them ending by the hammer, two ending few centimeters from the tip.

It seems there are some makers marks and/or decorations on the ricasso but the picture quality does not allow for further investigation

Conclusion:
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The blade is typical for Class IIa after Mr.Z. The furrows and the hammer indicate that this blade architecture was made for durability i
feather, which is a lot work to add on a blade, shows us somebody needed it (and was willing to pay more for that!) to use certain fenc

Main Conclusion

In short, our working-hypothesis for this weapon is:

"Karabela-type saber (of class IIa by Z. Zablocki) from the end of the 17th century of Polish-Lithuanian origin".

You might ask why I excluded the beginning of the 18th century? I would argue that sabers from that time very often had some kind o
since it was a time period of opulence and changeable politics. It was common for nobleman to demonstrate their affiliation to a certain
letting the swordmaker place corresponding decoration on the weapon. This is just an opinion matching with other characteristics of th
shown above and an overall "feeling" for this kind of swords. There are of course sabers with political/religious decoration before and la

---
You try now!

Below I post an image of another Karabela. Feel free to examine it yourself and think about it. I will be happy if you post your results
next Karabela is from a well known source, so if you already know the exact answer, you can still write it down, but hide the source so
doesnt know it can still make his or her own guess. I admit that I could have choosen an easier example, but this is not about winning
about the fun exploring and learning. I will reveal the correct answer in a few days!
The next part will be about two weapons compared to each other but of different origin. I hope you enjoy reading and as always, pleas
see something what doesnt match with your information or if you have any questions!
Have fun and until next time!

Attached Images

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Last edited by Ian; 31st August 2021 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Replaced graphics links with attachments

28th August 2021,

11:23 PM

awdaniec666 The Ultimate Karabela Guide PART 3

Member
I decided to change the topic for Part 3 of this guide from a comparison of two weapons to something different to dive deeper into the
deciphering the history of a Karabela. Namely the possibilities of origin of older blades mounted on Karabela sabers.

This part will be more about images rather than written information.
Please consider looking for more information in catalogs of museums, auctions and so on. There is much to discover and the following
impression about where to start your search when considering if a blade has been reused.
Join Date: May
2021 ---
Location: Northern
Germany
Posts: 98 The Ultimate Karabela Guide Part 3
---

Throughout history many blades have been reused on newer hilts. A good blade was expensive and fencing techniques depen
design of the blade as well as the hilt design. In particular, European saber blades had a quite consistent design which permitted a fenc
century blade with an early 19th century hilt. No problem in that.

Below is a list of sword-types which I know regularly or sometimes had blades we can find on later made Karabela-hilts, the kontuszow
and also battle versions:

Hungarian sabers
Polish-Hungarian sabers (Stefan Batory influenced, Polish King from 1576)
Ottoman sabers (a lot were captured at f.e. Chocim in 1673 and Vienna in 1683)
German sabers (f.e. "Säbel zu teutsch gefasst" or the Dussack
Older polish sabers (f.e. Class I, "Hussar saber" (this is the last time I use this term for class I!)

---

Examples:

Figure 4. Hungarian saber, 17th century

Figure 5. Polish-Hungarian saber, 16th century (Rüstkammer, Dresden, Germany)

Figure 6. Ottoman saber, age unknown to me

Figure 7. German saber, 17th century (Wikipedia)

Figure 8. Polish saber Class I, around 1700(?) (National Museum in Cracow, Poland)

Figure 9. Example of a reused blade on a newer Karabela hilt - A Karabela kontuszowa with a 17th century blade (Gold inlay "IOANNES
POLONIARUM") with a mid- to late-18th century hilt (former Nuri Museum, Switzerland)

Figure 10. Another reused blade (Spocki Dom Aukcyjny, Poland)

---

Part 4 will continue as planned with a comparison of two sabers the same age but from different origin.
Enjoy and comment!

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Attached Images

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Last edited by Ian; 31st August 2021 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Replaced graphics links with attachments

4th September 2021, 09:30 PM #10

Ian
Vikingsword Staff
awdaniec666,

Thank you for all the time and effort you have put into these posts. It is greatly appreciated.

I have received a request to transfer this thread to the European Armoury Forum on this site, where you may likely
receive more responses. You will still be able to post in the thread after it has been transferred.

Ian.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,701

4th September 2021, 09:31 PM #11

Ian
Vikingsword Staff
Transferred to Euro Forum.

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,701

5th September 2021, 04:52 AM #12

ariel
Member
Fig 6. was just sold on liveauctioneers for $750 + 23% fee.. It was described as Russian Cossack Ukrainian or Don. I
asked a question on what grounds , but did not receive any answer.
Pics and description were taken off the page.

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503

5th September 2021, 10:48 AM #13

awdaniec666
Member
Thanks Ariel for that info!

Join Date: May 2021

Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 98

5th September
2021, 05:49 PM

Jim
McDougall Quote:
Arms Historian
Originally Posted by ariel
Fig 6. was just sold on liveauctioneers for $750 + 23% fee.. It was described as Russian Cossack Ukrainian or Don. I asked a questi
grounds , but did not receive any answer.
Pics and description were taken off the page.

Join Date: Dec I would imagine this association may be based on the well known 1891 painting by Ilya Repin, "Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks to Su
2004 the Ottoman Empire" by painter Ilya Repin.
Location: Route
66 This painting has well influenced the images of this famed host of Cossacks since then, and I can recall a number of times I have seen s
Posts: 9,318
against this backdrop. I can recall discussions with Iaroslav Lebedynsky years ago about these Cossacks and the type of sabers they use
descent). While mostly they used the 'L-guard' sabers of Poland and Lithuania (their original descent ) they of course would have used f
weapons as well.

The saber illustrated in #6 is of course Ottoman, with familiar pistol grip hilt, and likely early to mid 18th century. Aside from well evide
there is not really a way to distinctly align this with Zaporozhians. It is unlikely it would have been of the Don Host, but again, possibiliti

The reason this Ottoman saber might have been included among listings of 'karabela' is that I have seen images of Polish swords of thi
pistol grip termed 'karabela', using the term in a more collective sense.
Returning to the Zaporozhian use of these types of swords, it is indeed possible they did use these as well as the L-guard form of Polish

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century.
The use of the L-guard sabers was confirmed by excavations from the Battle of Beretschko (1651) in the Ukraine, and the numerous exa
documented in a 1992 article. I do not recall these types of Ottoman hilted sabers among those shown.

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Attached Images

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Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th September 2021 at 06:08 PM.

6th September 2021, 01:32 AM #15

Radboud
Member
Thank you for the excellent write up awdaniec666 Polish swords have a lot of charm to them, that's for certain!
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 156

11th September 2021, 01:12 AM #16

awdaniec666
Member
I had a conversation with an extraordinary swordsmith from Poland lately.
We discussed sword usage in relation to the damage the blade is taking especially from parrying.
We came to the conclusion Mr.Z´s theory of how blows were parried with the type II saber is one which you can
expect from an olympic fencer (as Mr.Z was) but will not get you and your blade far in battle.
Reflecting parades will lead to serious edge damage to such an extend that the used blade must be fully replaced
after fighting multiple opponents.
Join Date: May 2021 Therefore my personal working theory is now, like old sources from the medival (f.e. my time-distant teacher Peter
Location: Northern Germany von Danzig from the 15th century) tell us that one should only parry with the strong ("Stärke") of the blade, near
Posts: 98 the ricasso or the crossguard itself.
While this can seem obvious, one has to keep in mind that fights with sharp weapons are very uncommon these days
(I know of certain madmen) and such a theory could be only verified by clashing ORIGINAL blades, not modern
replica grade to see how our forefathers steel behaves.
As usual: There is no black and white, make your own conclusions using your logical mind but mind the experience
of people who know their stuff.
Cheers
P.S.: I would very much appreciate input in form of images of your Karabelas or thoughts on this thread. Nearly
1300 readers must have something interesting to say. Thanks go out to the people who commented so far. This is for
you guys, so if you want to hear more, I need feedback. I know the stuff and don´t need to write it down for myself
:P

11th September 2021, 04:52 PM #17

Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
I must say this thread you have posted is not only informative, but fascinating, and I am learning more on the actual
use of the saber itself in combat, not just the karabela. While I have indeed fenced (many years ago) I would not
consider that experience offered me enough experience to speak with authority from that perspective, but I do think
my years of research give me a viable working knowledge.

I do very much want to keep the discussion going, as I think there is much more to learn, and as you note, the
number of viewers indicate a most notable interest. The fact that there is a paucity of entries to the discussion
Join Date: Dec 2004 overall, is an unfortunate situation that is most often the case on many threads. Many readers fear placing entries as
Location: Route 66 they do not feel they have enough knowledge etc., but do not realize that asking questions is extremely important,
Posts: 9,318 just as placing ideas and observations.

In an earlier entry of yours, for example, you pointed out that in the attack with the saber, the position known as

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'seconde' was used......describing the arm with bent elbow, holding saber at eye level, point slightly downward.
I had not known the correct term, nor it seems position, though I thought I did, thinking it was higher (high tierce).
This was valuable to know and I thank you for the correction.

Here I would like to add my thoughts on the use of the saber in combat, in the 17th into 19th century, and typically
of course with cavalry or mounted forces.
While the concerns about parrying are of course well placed as far as damage of the blade, it would seem that in
actual battle, the prospects for 'one on one duel' were fairly limited in the chaos of the melee. Naturally if he were
attacked suddenly by one of the swirling mass of opponents, he would have to defend and probably with parry as
noted. However, these kinds of reactions could not have been conditioned, nor 'scheduled', as in a fencing match.
These were adrenaline fueled, 'knee jerk' reactions.

The circumstances for positioning were also limited with the element of complete chaos and impact of deadly combat
factoring in the swirl of combatants, panicked or wounded horses, terrain and its conditions, noise and visibility
(weather, smoke from guns, screaming etc.)..

Initial contact relied on set draw cuts or scheduled blows, but after that, despite any conditioned training, that would
degenerate in the ensuing chaos of the melee. Consider as well, the use of other weapons such as the battle axe.
There were no holds barred in combat, nor rules, of course.
The damage to a sword blade was therefore, in my opinion, incidental rather than the result of improper parrying
procedure.

On the note on the use of 'watered steel' on the high end versions of karabela for dress etc. I have not ever seen
examples, but would imagine they did exist with the artisans from Ottoman regions in Lvov etc.
Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th September 2021 at 05:05 PM.

11th September 2021, 07:17 PM #18

fernando
Lead Moderator European
Armoury Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...While the concerns about parrying are of course well placed as far as damage of the blade, it would seem
that in actual battle, the prospects for 'one on one duel' were fairly limited in the chaos of the melee.
Naturally if he were attacked suddenly by one of the swirling mass of opponents, he would have to defend
and probably with parry as noted....
...The circumstances for positioning were also limited with the element of complete chaos and impact of
deadly combat factoring in the swirl of combatants, panicked or wounded horses, terrain and its conditions,
Join Date: Dec 2004 noise and visibility (weather, smoke from guns, screaming etc.)..
Location: Portugal ...The damage to a sword blade was therefore, in my opinion, incidental rather than the result of improper
Posts: 9,315 parrying procedure...

Wise words, Jim .

11th September 2021, 08:34 PM #19

Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Wise words, Jim .

Thank you very much Fernando!!!!

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,318

11th September 2021, 09:46 PM #20

awdaniec666
Member
Thanks Jim for that important input and yet again for your kind words. I am glad to hear this information is uselful.

It seems to me that people debating historical fencing techniques (including myself) forget about the practical
process of a battle which has been, as you comprehensible pointed out, a total chaos sometimes (most of the
times?). I think I understood correctly that you brought the aspect of fighting/defending against different kinds of
weapons and this has, without doubt, a huge impact on the way one has to use his weapon, a saber in our example.
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany As for the fencing stance, the "seconde", as I translated it from Mr.Z´s work, I am not sure if this can be taken as
Posts: 98 the standart for this specific time period. As fencing instructors have often traveled across Europe to share their
knowledge, there are some written sources left for us to take a look on. And here comes a huge difference when it
comes to the "Polish fencing style". There is practically no written source for that from the 17th-18th century. We
have short mentionings in italian or german sources. But overall, its a riddle how the Polish saber has been used. I
have heard the theory that saber fencing was tought by battle-experienced soldiers to young men or amongst the
troops when gathered. This is a good question for a historian and I can´t wait until somebody finds a manuscript.
Another problem is that a lot of documents are lost forever because of the destruction which has taken place in
Poland during its "non-existence", the occupations and both world wars. Sad!
I can give you the additional information which I have been tought by my fencing instructor who teached
F.C.Christmanns German saber based on a manual from 1838: The seconde is held with your arm as straight as
possible. Your wrist so high, that you can see the eyes of your opponent under your hand. The thumb may not be
placed on the back of the grip, you shall hold the weapon in a hammer-grip style. This is to prevent from thumb
contusions while thrusting, which Christmann tells us, occured very often if the saber wasnt hold in a different
manner. Side note: Christmann was a German who taught the use of the saber to Napoleons Dragoons.
As you see, there are a lot of interpretations of stances through time and location and Mr.Z. The one Christmann
proposes reminds me of the "Prime" stance from other sources.
There is a book about the polish saber written by an US-American (i will not name him) which I have not read. I dont
know where he has his information from since the Echelons of historical fencing in Poland are clueless about their
own countries´ historical fencing techniques. So be aware of misinformation from such sources. If I am incorrect and

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someone knows of accurate sources he mentions in his work, please write.
There is a family of fencers in Poland (The Sieniawskis) which has "created" (I think that is the most appropiate word
for it) a school of using the polish saber, namely "Sztuka Krzyzowa" (translation: "Art of the cross"). While I highly
appreciate the effort of re-creating something forgotten for a long time and promoting ones countries´ legacy, these
people base all of their fencing-style, as far as I know, from a single sentence in a italian description of european
weapon use from the, I think, 17th century (sic! just one sentence). This sentence is loosely translated "...and the
Poles cut crosswise.". So "all they do" is to parry with a cut down and riposte with a cut down from the other side,
but not in moulinet-manner, but with swings form the shoulder. They do it very fast so one could argue there is no
need to take a stance which claims you a safe space in front of you (f.e. "langort" in german longsword).
They produced a movie ("Born for the saber") which I can recommend when it comes to a historical accurate picture
of a young boy becoming a soldier in 17th century Poland-Lithuania. But keep in mind what I mentioned before when
watching these, admittedly very good looking, duels.

11th September 2021, 10:01 PM #21

awdaniec666
Member
Another thing I forgot to mention...
I am lucky enough to own a type II polish saber with nicks of battle use. Those nicks are located mostly in the
middle of the blade. The middle is sharp, nut not as sharpened as the later part. The Part going towards the tip has
been strongly smoothed and sharpened again. Mentioned nicks are 1,0 to a max. of 1,5 mm deep. Most of those go
into the blade in a 90° angle to the edge. Some are angled in a smaller degree.
This contradicts the conversation and theory I worked out with mentioned swordsmith.
Join Date: May 2021 Since this is only one, very old blade, I cannot and will not abstract anything from it and claim it goes for all sabers
Location: Northern Germany from that time (17th c.). It can be that some youngers in 1885 just did light sparring with two of these sabers,
Posts: 98 history can go strange ways.
But a working-theory can be rightfully that the middle of the blade was for parries and the last part for cutting
(When in control of the fighting situation and not in total chaos). Somebody obviously cared for re-shapening
(getting rid of the nicks) only this part of that saber. This, of course, may be just coincidental and it can be the work
of somebody much later and not familiar with the authentical battle preparation of a saber.

12th September
#22
2021, 03:35 PM

awdaniec666
Member
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The fact that there is a paucity of entries to the discussion overall, is an unfortunate situation that is most often the case on
many threads. Many readers fear placing entries as they do not feel they have enough knowledge etc., but do not realize
that asking questions is extremely important, just as placing ideas and observations.

Join Date: May

2021 100% agree with that.
Location: Northern I myself have witnessed a gatekeeping/elitarism mentality on certain polish forums, especially when some people who claim they
Germany
have the absolute knowledge are confronted with somebody not beeing a Polish person. Then argumentation mixes with patriotism.
Posts: 98
But these, often "load people", in a way one can be "loud" on internet forums, are very few and the majority uses such threads for
asking questions about a weapon they recently bought/found and dont know what it is or where it comes from.

So: Feel free to ask anything here. No question is dumb and I will be happy to help out if I can. As far as I got the mindset right,
this goes for all of us already exchanging thoughts here. If you have informations different than those I have noted, please share it.
As I said, I am not a historian or professional in any matter on this topic and my word is not to be chiseled in stone!

I totally forgot about the interactive part of my guide. Here is something I posted in Part 2, but the image somehow was lost on its
way.

---
You try now!

Below I post an image of another Karabela (edit: Type II saber). Feel free to examine it yourself and think about it. I will be happy
if you post your results in a comment. This next Karabela (edit: Type II saber) is from a well known source, so if you already know
the exact answer, you can still write it down, but hide the source, so somebody who doesnt know it can still make his or her own
guess. I admit that I could have choosen an easier example, but this is not about winning or loosing, but just about the fun
exploring and learning. I will reveal the correct answer in a few days!

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Attached Images

15th September 2021, 12:30 AM #23

JT88
Member
Excellente information sur un sujet alambiqué, je lis personnellement le livre de Wlodzimierz en ce moment juste
Join Date: Jun 2021 pour la raison de devenir intelligent afin de pouvoir faire un achat éclairé sur un karabela !
Posts: 46

Jim, j'ai eu la possibilité de voir la célèbre réponse des cosaques de Zaporozhian en personne à Kiev en 2010, je
pense que c'était en tournée là-bas si je me souviens bien. Je n'avais pas le virus de l'épée, comme je le fais

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maintenant quand j'étais là-bas, mais je me souviens qu'il y avait un grand nombre d'armes mongoles dans le
musée là-bas. Truc cool!

16 septembre 2021, 15h39 # 24

Partie intéressée
Membre
Citation:

Initialement posté par awdaniec666

Ci-dessous, je poste une image d'un autre Karabela (édition: sabre de type II). N'hésitez pas à l'examiner
vous-même et à y réfléchir. Je serai heureux si vous postez vos résultats dans un commentaire.\

C'est difficile. J'ai regardé fixement cet article un peu pendant plusieurs matins perplexe. La taille de l'image rend
difficile de voir les proportions globales (peut-être 900-1000 de hauteur pour qu'elle s'adapte à l'écran la prochaine
Date d'inscription : fois).
décembre 2019
Lieu : Est de la Sierra
Messages : 304 Lame : La lame me rappelle les exemples tatars du XVIIe siècle avec une pointe de lance émoussée. Il manque des
foulons et/ou une nervure centrale. Le fort semble plus droit et légèrement incliné vers l'arrière de la poignée, pas la
légère inclinaison vers l'avant des peuples turcs/mongols de la steppe à l'est (Kipchaqs/Mongols/Tatars). Bien sûr, si
la lame était une lame recyclée, l'angle lame/poignée aurait pu être modifié à ce moment-là. Il y a un soupçon de
yelman sans marteau définitif. Je ne peux pas voir s'il y a un ricasso. Je suppose qu'il s'agit d'une lame laminée
d'après la photo.

Poignée : la poignée est de type polonais avec un bec d'oiseau à 90 degrés. Est-ce une construction sandwich ? Il
semble y avoir des rivets creux. Des écailles de corne ?

Garde : Petite garde dont la forme générale est influencée par les sabres NE du XVe siècle. Pour faire écho à la
question d'awdanie666 ; Comment s'appellent les pièces de la garde qui descendent dans le manche et se projettent
au-dessus de la garde en formant une croix ? Wasy en polonais Langlets ou barbe en anglais ?

Temps : Serait-ce un sabre du 18ème siècle avec une lame recyclée ? Pour moi, il semble que cela pourrait être
fonctionnel ou défilé en fonction de la gaine.

Sait-on où se trouve le point d'équilibre ?

Un petit mot sur la technique. Rivkin a déclaré que la raison de la courbure des sabres NE était que lors de la coupe
de la courbure, la prise était relâchée juste avant l'impact pour réduire le risque de se casser le poignet.

awdaniec666, merci encore pour toutes ces recherches et traductions. C'est un sujet passionnant.
Dernière édition par la partie intéressée ; 16 septembre 2021 à 19h43 . Raison : Réflexion supplémentaire et ponctuation

17 septembre 2021, 20h32 # 25

awdaniec666
Membre
Citation:

Publié à l'origine par la partie intéressée

Pour faire écho à la question d'awdanie666 ; Comment s'appellent les pièces de la garde qui descendent
dans le manche et se projettent au-dessus de la garde en formant une croix ? Wasy en polonais Langlets ou
barbe en anglais

Date d'adhésion : mai 2021

Lieu : Nord de l'Allemagne C'est agréable de voir que je ne suis pas seul quand il s'agit de cette partie d'un sabre. Pour notre cause. Appelons
Messages : 98 simplement son "wasy" ou "barbe" alors. ("Barbe" est directement traduit).

Voici la déclaration officielle de ce sabre, comme indiqué sur wikipedia.

Il est situé dans le "Livrustkammaren" à Stockholm, en Suède.
L'image que j'ai utilisée est à partager (Merci au musée ! ). Sa description officielle sur wikipedia est la suivante
(traduit du suédois vers l'anglais via google) :

"Fastener plaqué de plaques de bois brun foncé, fixé avec des rivets à têtes de laiton moletées, deux conservés sur
trois à l'origine. Au sommet courbé vers l'avant en dentelle et contourné, autour, le rail avant et arrière de laiton
doré avec vigne poinçonnée.

Courtes paires de barres droites en laiton doré à extrémités sphériques et en une avec rails de guidage. La croix est
décorée en relief ciselé d'une croix entourée de fleurs.

Lame en acier, 34 mm de large, incurvée, à un seul tranchant jusqu'à la partie de pointe à deux tranchants d'environ
154 mm de long. "

Les informations sur wikipedia indiquent qu'elles datent du 17ème siècle. Ce n'est pas le cas. Comme je le sais de
l'exposition officielle du musée, le signe sous ce Karabela spécifique est signé " Sabre polonais, vers 1700 ".

Alors... Là vous l'avez.La réponse qui est appuyée par les historiens est : " Un sabre polonais vers 1700.
"

Mais que serions-nous si nous n'avions pas l'intention d'être plus catholiques que le pape dans ce fil ?

Ce qui suit est ma propre opinion. Je respecte l'expertise scientifique et les limites de l'archéologie et de l'histoire et
ne vise donc pas à corriger les professionnels sur les armes anciennes. Ce qui suit n'est qu'une supposition basée sur
mon expérience et mes connaissances à des fins pédagogiques...

Style de lame :
Pour être honnête, c'est une forme que je n'ai rencontrée qu'une seule fois. On dirait que quelqu'un voulait une lame
à la Karabela. Le point était et n'est pas vraiment destiné à pousser. J'irais jusque là et je dirais que c'est censé
ressembler à une véritable lame prête au combat, mais cela ne montre pas des choses comme des foulons, etc. Oui,
il y a quelque chose comme une "plume"/"pioro"/yelmen mais très, très rudimentaire. Juste à partir de là, je pense
que cette lame est bien trop lourdement équilibrée vers la pointe, pour être utilisée pour le combat et trop courte
pour être un hélicoptère de cavalerie.

Crossguard : La forme est dans le style ottoman du 17ème siècle. L'épaisseur/résistance est discutable. Des
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croisillons plus larges / plus solides en acier peuvent être trouvés pliés dans d'autres musées. Ce n'est pas fait pour
la bataille à mon avis. La décoration semble avoir été réalisée au milieu du XVIIIe siècle pour quelqu'un qui voulait
porter ce sabre pour des raisons de "parade". Le laiton est un bon matériau, mais pas aussi durable que l'acier,
encore une fois...

Poignée : style décoratif polonais de la fin du XVIIIe siècle. Absolument aucun signe d'architecture ce qui permet
d'éviter de glisser dans la main (szewrony, rivets saillants). Du bois tout simplement. Les rivets en laiton ne
traversent clairement pas la soie mais sont montés sur des clous en fer (on peut le voir car il manque une "couronne
de rivet" en laiton. Je ne connais cette arme que sous cet angle de vue, il ne peut rien dire sur la conception de la
poignée (sandwich /uni-lame ?)

Conclusion :

sabre polonais décoratif avec une poignée de karabela datant d'entre 1750 et 1850. ( Karabela
kontuszowa).

17 septembre
2021, 21h26

Partie
intéressée Citation:
Membre
Initialement posté par awdaniec666
C'est agréable de voir que je ne suis pas seul quand il s'agit de cette partie d'un sabre. Pour notre cause. Appelons simplement son "w
directement traduit). Lame

en acier de 34 mm de large, courbée, à simple tranchant jusqu'à la partie de pointe à deux tranchants d'environ 154 mm de long . qu
Karabela. Le point était et n'est pas vraiment destiné à pousser. J'irais jusque-là et je dirais que cela est censé ressembler à une vérit
montre pas des choses comme des foulons, etc.. Oui , il y a quelque chose comme une "plume"/"pioro"/yelmen mais très, très rudime
cette lame est bien trop lourde et équilibrée vers la pointe,
Date
d'inscription :
décembre 2019
Lieu : Est de la
Sierra
Messages : Wasy c'est alors. Je n'ai pas trouvé de meilleur mot.
304
Je poste une lame avec une section transversale similaire et un profil qui est également similaire à bien des égards, si vous éloignez l'incli
livre Une étude de l'épée orientale, bien qu'il dise qu'il y avait des lames Kipchaq et mongoles similaires au XIIIe siècle, attribue ce modèl
XVIe et XVIIe siècles, il a été produit en Égypte, en Perse et dans l'empire ottoman de manière congruente. Ils pourraient être en bulat ou

PS. il semble que 800 mp de haut pourraient être le maximum que nous puissions utiliser et adapter une image entièrement à l'écran. Ce

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Images jointes

18 septembre 2021, 11h49 # 27

awdaniec666
Membre
Merci pour cette rectification. Vous avez raison, les lames se ressemblent beaucoup !
Je suis heureux d'avoir l'opportunité d'apprendre ici
L'image est-elle tirée de " Une étude de l'épée orientale" ? Il a l'air très bien fait.
Edit : En regardant la lame tatar sur l'image que vous avez postée, il me semble qu'il y a un large plein (ou devrait-
on appeler une dépression large et peu profonde) sur la lame ainsi qu'un petit marteau. J'ai raté ce genre de choses
sur le Livrustkammaren Karabela . C'est pourquoi j'ai eu l'idée d'une lame uniquement décorative en premier lieu.
Date d'adhésion : mai 2021 Cela ressemble à un simple morceau de métal en forme pour moi.
Lieu : Nord de l'Allemagne
Messages : 98 Dernière édition par awdaniec666; 18 septembre 2021 à 11h54 . Raison : un mot sur la lame tatar

19 septembre
2021, 00:05

awdaniec666
Membre
Le guide ultime de Karabela - PARTIE 4
Cette partie concerne les marques de fabricants. C'est un sujet calme et difficile et il y a de quoi écrire un livre à ce sujet. Ceci ici
Early Makers Mark s " dans ce forum, car beaucoup de Karabelas sont marqués de la marque de la faucille dentée, parfois appelée " Gu

Ces marques apparaissent sur

Date d'adhésion : BEAUCOUP
mai 2021 de lames entre 1500
Lieu : Nord de
l'Allemagne et 1700, Dussacks, Schiavonna, épées wallonnes, etc.
Messages : 98

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- Italie du Nord (Gênes)
- Allemagne du Sud (Solingen, Passau)
- Autriche (Steiermark)

En ce qui concerne les ateliers européens, il y a un énorme problème pour distinguer certaines marques de fabricants. Prenez la faucill
(Ils avaient des colonies dans le Caucase -> Gurda). Il a été copié par au moins une poignée d'endroits à travers l'Europe : Steiermark

Comment abordez-vous la recherche en distinguant des marques similaires :

Prenons l'exemple du "loup Passauer". Cette marque a été modifiée à travers l'histoire et les lieux et il y a suffisamment de littérature o
loup a été faite à un moment précis et quel atelier a utilisé un exemple spécifique (pour autant que nous puissions le savoir maintenan

Voir l'image 1

Les images suivantes sont là pour vous fournir une compréhension de base de la façon dont ces marques ont été faites et à quoi elles r
tous) ont été estampés dans la lame alors qu'elle était encore formable. Ces timbres pouvaient être utilisés plusieurs fois avant d'être d

En ce qui concerne la faucille, il existe de nombreuses variantes. Des faucilles les unes à côté des autres, des faucilles les unes au-dess
points simples, etc. Il en
va de même pour les autres marques, comme vous le voyez dans l'image du loup Passauer.

Il n'y a pas de liste complète des marques et de leurs ateliers. Je doute qu'il y en ait un. Tout ce que nous pourrions faire est de créer u
On ne saura probablement pas d'où vient chaque marque car l'importation/exportation de lames à l'époque était très courante. Les arm
(en allemand : "Schwertfeger") à partir de pièces importées : une lame pouvait provenir d'Allemagne, le crossguard pouvait avoir été f
artisan hongrois. Ces articles ont été livrés ou même commandés à un certain atelier où ils ont été associés à une arme optimisée pour

La plupart de ces images ont été prises à partir de sabres de type II. Trois proviennent du fil "marques de fabricants" sur ce forum. L'u
autre représente la marque du lion persan qui se trouve également sur le sabre de Stephan Batory au MWP à Varsovie. Faute de temps
avec ses marques. Cela prendrait trop de temps, ce que je n'ai malheureusement pas.

Mots-clés que vous pouvez utiliser pour trouver des marques de fabricants sur Internet :

-FRINGIA
-Marque de faucille
-Gurda
-Passauer Wolf
-Marque de Solingen
-Marque de lion persan

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Images jointes

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Dernière édition par awdaniec666; 19 septembre 2021 à 00h11 . Raison: ajout de la marque du lion persan

19th September 2021, 11:09 PM #29

Interested Party
Member
Quote:

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

Thank you for this correction. You are right, the blades do look very similar!

Is the image from " A Study of the Eastern Sword"? It looks very well made.
Edit: Looking at the tatar blade on the image you have posted, it seems to me that there is a wide fuller (or
should it be called a broad and shallow depression) on the blade as well as a little hammer. I missed these
Join Date: Dec 2019
kind of things on the Livrustkammaren Karabela. This is why I had the thought of a decorative-only blade in
Location: Eastern Sierra the first place. It looks like just a plain piece of shaped metal to me.
Posts: 304

Not a correction. Just an idea.

I've noticed that there are of Indian/Afghan tulwars of a similar cross section and profile. As you mention wide
shallow fullers are notoriously hard to determine in photographs. I would not know how this relates to your subject
as Indian sword techniques to my understanding have a stiffer wrist (I have heard that the disc and short grip may
lock the hand in place) and the Indian style used a lot of slicing/ draw cut movements. How these preferred
movements would effect the desired balance, weight of the blade etc., I do not have the competence to answer.

20th September 2021, 01:30 PM #30

awdaniec666
Member
This is a problem we share. I am very much into Karabela sabers, a little bit less into hungarian-polish types and
everything else oscillates around that for me, so I very much appreciate knowledge on tangent topics, when it comes
f.e. to re-mounted blades of distant origin

Join Date: May 2021

Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 98

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